harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: Driscolls board is down to him as President and director, Jimmy Evans and Randall Taylor (who I believe is an attorney). They engineered the black funds and the worst of the financial abuse. it has a b in it. I am sorry for your pain. SiteSeer: I see nothing denoting an office. It seems like to me that in a group of people, these things sort themselves out without anyone declaring it to be a position and appointing people to it. Dallas Jenkins And The Mormon's Counterfeit Jesus According to Ingrid McCullough: Mr. Jenkins claims that he felt God speaking to him 3-4 times in his life. Years later, the church long ago destroyed by heavy abuse and the former members scattered, a number of them atheists today, that drama pastor is now into the New Age. No one is forced to read comments and subject themselves to more pain, however, that discussion could help others in dealing or confronting issues. That ship has sailed, and size is no guarantee greed and corruption will not take over even the smallest group or home church. According to the conference website, they will be delivering world-class communicators, high-energy worship and awesome entertainment. Sounds like church, huh?! ++++++++++++++++++++. It has reference to one who is seen as a care giver, or guardian for the church. JMac should never pastor another church ever and Dallas needs to take a look at himself and why he was chosen for that elder board. And I doubt it was simply losing their job, as many of them voluntarily left. . with or without religious trappings. I guess its all a matter of perspective. Im becoming increasingly wary of the megachurch model. In March of 2000, Harvest Bible Chapel adopted the mission to establish Gospel-believing, Bible-teaching churches. You were part of a workforce which brought a feeling of camaraderie and purpose and fellowship. Lord knows we need a fundamental change in the selection of leaders for the Body of Christ and an accountability system in place to keep the charlatans at bay. I suppose those are the sort of preachers Jesus had in mind when He said: You guys are tempting me to mount my soap box! Can you really fault someone for thinking that maybe they got their ideas on Pastors & elders wrong? There were kindergarten through 5th graders AND many of us parents / employees, who did not know it was going to be shown. HBF disbanded in 2017. If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? (And our atheist friend shows humility, respect, and insight.) The first three paragraphs above is what I was hoping to comment on lol. Churchgoers in 21st century America are just too gullible to keep these folks out of the pulpit. Muslin, fka Dee Holmes: I will admit I now find it kind of shocking that a guy who never knew Jesus in life could muscle his way in and call himself an apostle among the other apostles. And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. There have been many people demanding our statements be made public, and now that they are, are rejoicing in that, all while commenting from anonymous online handles. Im of course speaking about Paul. And if they refuse to see that these guys are nothing more than carnival barkers and mountebanks? As this dumpster fire continues to grow, how could anyone with a scintilla of Christianity continue to support this ministry? You see, the symbolic meaning of harvest in Scripture encompasses two main areas: God's provision for us and God's blessing for others. Just them asking me to become an elder told me something was wrong, I would say that the church you reference may have never had an ACTUAL elder then. Thats the reason Adams concocted his scheme. There are some 30,000 Christian denominations and parachurch organizations in the world. This often brings to my mind the movie Bridge Over the River Kwai. He sat there for years and participated when people were being bullied and abused, being screamed at by their pastor and boss to the point of tears, watching hundreds of thousands of dollars being spent profligately. God has shown great favor and grace to Harvest Bible Chapel, allowing us to plant churches, host in thriving mens, womens events, and student gatherings, and creating ministries centering around outreach in our communities. This is not to defend JM or associates, but to note that the vision of eternal punishments that motivates (or justifies, or both) a lot of ministry in churches in the Western theological tradition (I keep coming back to that; sorry, but I have come to believe its important) puts a very heavy weight on one side of the cost/benefit calculus in ministry. I dont think so. Does that make you manly? Sad. You sound like an attorney who just sent me a letter stating that I posted false statements by a victim. Prayer and then in person, second after trying that, you are to take a witness in Christ / go with a brother in Christ to confront, then and only then you must take the church elders and confront your brother that he may turn and forsake his sins. I have to admit that Philippians 1 often comes to mind as I look at these mega-messes the American church is in. I will try and reign it in. We have millions of church folks in America who say they would die to protect the Bible, but not many actually read it! Tagged Harvest Bible Chapel, James MacDonald | Leave a comment. Dallas has at long last come out, along with a long list of other former top Harvest leadrs. Regarding the $2m house in Inverness: Let us never forget how TED exposed the story of how MacDonald agreed to move to a smaller house in Elgin, and published the location/pictures to prove what a sacrifice he was making and secretly (via a trust, so his name wasnt on it) secured another mansion instead. FOR WITHOUT THEM ONE CANNOT SPEAK OF THE CHURCH. Lets face it, in this era one can access whatever superior teaching is preferred in the comfort of their home or car. HCA's highest purpose is to develop students who are grounded in God's Word. ex HCA Staff: . They all seem to be on display at HBC. Care. Rather, it appears that the early church looked much more Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or Anglican than low-church protestant. I should have rechecked my facts before commenting. His arrogance and rage unbalances him. Remember, free speech is about what the government can and cant do, doesnt have diddly to do with a private forum. Nothing to be ashamed of. Its a lonely place, especially when my life was steeped in church community, teaching, and deep, deep, love for Christ and His people. He is currently Director of Media at Harvest Bible Chapel in Chicago, where he directed the award-winning short film "The Ride" and is currently developing multiple feature films. THEY are the ones who the Lord calls upon to should humbly shepherd the flock. In 2021, Camp Harvest was sold to a ministry to continue the maintenance and ongoing work of ministry to young people, youth ministry, and camp events. Straight up, you need to rethink this. Law Prof: the posting of it on this website is unfortunate, as are many of the false rumors in the comments. The NT clearly outlines the positive attributes I am talking about.. Having re-read the letter a few times now I find it to be more of a CYA document than anything else. temperate I am generally ignorant regarding legal or business matters, but isnt this illegal? Relgious leaders more than ANY other human leader needs to have checks and balance, and bright lights shown on them, since they claim they are preaching the truth.. Thank you John for your honesty and insight into elder selection at HBC. Im not going to say that to you. Runnin bear dove in the water, little white dove did the same Dallas, I want to also say in all gentleness- I know youd like to be in control but you cant be. Matt Chandler (born June 20, 1974) is the lead pastor of teaching at the Village Church, a Southern Baptist church in Flower Mound, Texas, and the President of the Acts 29 Network. But if these offices are wrong it means the wheels fell of of the Church extremely early in its history. Rather, as all of these spiritually abusive situations demonstrate, the flock is likely to be deceived and preyed upon by wolves in sheeps clothing. i have an observation: i know many people who dont subscribe to christianity, yet are the most excellent human beings. In a godly biblical hierarchy, what would flow downhill would be love and care. I appreciate both of you being so vulnerable. It was given to the elders two months ago. Ive seen the lightning flashing, I am sorry that my concerns about the institutional church from day one cause you distress. The first step for anyone who insists upon an institution with paid leaders (I would argue against such) is to limit those salaries to moderate living wages, in line with or less than what the majority of their members live with. I was then presented with opportunity to post another letter that gives insight without including insulting and painful observations about others. And they swam out to each other through the swirling stream they came He was evidently so invested in making the Dramatic Point and leaving a Big Impression that I dont think he considered anyone else at that moment. During this season, we are encouraging everyone to give online and that can be done by clicking the button below. You state things so well that there is little to no need to add anything. Im convinced that an antinomian spirit has taken control of some ministries, where church leaders feel they have been released by grace from the obligation of observing the moral law. We all know who is trustworthy, mature and wise to go to for advice or counsel. I was there for 10 years and my daughters both attended Harvest Christian Academy and I had been asked to consider eldershipwe left in 2012 after repeated warnings from former elders. Never, and I mean never, have I heard someone say, I would leave, but I just cant survive without the gifted teaching. Rich: I think theres a massive problem with the deference thats given to pastors and other religious leaders. Just as I have loved you, so you must love one another. If people develop real relationships, they might start talking and could stand up against the abuse. Yeah, thats it self-esteem. I believe that would be the consensus of the Body of Christ at large, after getting a glimpse of his shenanigans. Crazy, huh? Youre standing on the right box, IMO. I was just telling my wife this morning, that all the corruption that gets exposed on TWW is actually quite consistent with the NT warning of beware of wolves in sheeps clothing. 1. Apparently, many pastors have opted to preach the gospel for the wrong reasons .. to toss out the name of Jesus now and then while they work their deception to benefit themselves. It's literally in his DNA, as his father Jerry is the co-author of the popular LeftBehind series of religious novels. Max: And to link them together as a Body of Christ, each one uniquely gifted to be a part of the whole something the institutional church just doesnt appear to get.Whose job is the ministry?Every believer has a part!When we separate believers into clergy vs. laity, pulpit vs. pew, us vs. them failing to equip and mobilize the saints to do the work of the ministry we miss what God intended for His Church and fall short of living in the Kingdom of Heaven here and now.Jesus talked a LOT about living in the Kingdom we would do well to read His words living in the church doesnt always mean living in the Kingdom.Based on my 70-year snapshot of the institutional church, theres a vast difference in what Christ describes vs. what we have put together in this thing we call church. Here are some fun and easy strategies to make the most of every moment of your Bible study. Yikes! Samuel Conner: wonder whether part of the problem lies in the theological DNA of the Western-derived traditions. The word contains with it a reference to age. Maybe thats why the history of the church is a history of exodus from established groups and setting up of new ones? Why is the main blogger and moderator so quick to shut down comments. I can only imagine what it was like for children. It seems fairly common that if the truly informed Reformed do not return to their faith in a God who loves all men they eventually end up atheists. Harvest Bible Chapel has owned its mistakes and endured to become a happier and healthier church, whose members recently pledged financially, in their walk/work for Christ, and in their. Both Steve Carter and Jenkins waited for public outcry and then expressed their moral outrage. Acts 20:17, Paul called the elders. 1 Peter 5:1, Peter exhorted the elders. It is never one individual who rules over the church, but a group of people, the elders. Every weekend were gathering to open the Bible together, growing in Gods ways through community and going out to bring God glory through His Son, Jesus Christ. If all this was that important to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM. I think these gifts are operating as God intended, outside of the systems weve designed and created. In case this has escaped your awareness, most folks on TWW have experienced abuse in churches. Noevangelical, lets get a bunch of our favorite beverages, cheese, olives, chocolate, cigars and a candle and well continue on. I sincerely thank you for this letter and the emotional turmoil you overcame to write it. each of us has a unique view into the multi-faceted diamond of God/Jesus/Holy Spirit. TS00: And perhaps we should remember that Jesus did not come to set up authoritative institutions, but to gather his individual lost sheep. True. Vincent: It seems that this website is a place where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury. WHERE TO FIND US. Its a modern proverb that in organizations characterized by power differentials, mistreatment flows downhill. This is not a widely understood concept, nor do many consider it at all. Its also possible it wasnt a continuous period of teaching, that there were times when they all had to go to work because they had families to support. No ill will intended, and I will add your f-i-l and family to my prayers. EPISKOPOS, translated in English is an overseer or a bishop. I hope that brings you some hope and encouragement today. 4107 N Steele Blvd, Fayetteville, AR, 72703, United States. Fred Adams former Harvest CFO has a serious gambling addiction. Our goals in writing these letters were accomplished, and its unfortunate that people are making them public. Your actions are tell tale in what you believe regard God and Jesus his son. Its life giving. CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders.. Growth group leaders, childrens staff and volunteers, and many others were committed to creating ways to safely and faithfully meet together. Here are some of my running thoughts of the statement. I AM GOD AND YOU ARE GOD AND EVERYTHING THAT GROKS IS GOD TOGETHER! The leaders of Harvest clearly did not shin light of problems; in fact it well documented now they were bullies/godfathers supressing thetruth. Being close only counts with horseshoes and hand grenades. John: I was asked to consider serving on the elder board there three days before I leftand the topic of 1Tim 3 wasnt brought up. Held himself out as a model. Wow. I dont see how you could get any further from the mark in your comment. IMO, most people attend church to replace the lost family and community modern society has sacrificed. Abigail: Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? God says he is the author and finisher of our faith which is a comforting truth. That community is you all, for whom I am so grateful! CJ Mahaney spread $$$ which brought him years of support from the Calvinista leaders. Some things are not. Faith Driven Team September 6, 2021 Bio, Christian investor, Voice. No more circumcision. As another new, unforeseen door opened to bring Harvest to the Aurora area, 200 people from the Elgin Campus were sent south, opening as the Aurora Campus on January 23, 2011. he has no tore proof to offer me. The Chosen is an artistic retelling of biblical events and it never claims to be a replacement for Scripture nor an addition to the holy Word of God. Ive got to process that letter. Revamping the financial transparency laws for 501-c3 religious entities would be a good start. You cant express truth sufficiently in religious teachings and traditions; it can only be found in a relationship with Christ. What was your salary Dallas for all your effort to misuse & misappropriate church tithes? It just completely sets things up for abusive situations. Didnt Dallas or is there another Jenkins son? It's God who opens doors, but we must walk through them. You might find people here are a lot more willing to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with. For some, that would be a great option. love does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth. makes me think of being in a warm shower or warm bath, you just dont want to get out. The Niles Campus became our third location in 2004. No announcement, no warning, just Have something I want you to see. Then suddenly Boom, there it was on the screen. Whew! The Naples church was founded in 2016 and carried the . Youre right to say kind of. Sorry to hear that he is now masquerading as Santa Claus Ill tell my grandchildren to be on the lookout. They deserve each other. I havent read the comments, and Im just going to say that seeing a dead bear there with James McDonald behind it made me sick. Many needy men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the charade. Sunday services, weekly small groups, other events all give meaning to peoples lonely lives, and the rest is mostly fluff. Its true, though, this is kind of an agonized therapy for me, and I am sincere. Another campus grew out of the prayers and intercession of a core group in Chicagos North Shore. not given to wine Restore him to ministry? It feels like Im eaten away inside. I wish that the decision to be a public figure in this scandal was left to the individual, not to third parties. These charlatans cannot be allowed to get away with this. They are needles in the haystack, rare and endangered species, last of the Mohicans so I will cheer them on rather than applauding those who masquerade as angels of light. Someone even mentioned an anti-Christ component here, which I agree with. Driscoll was stopped Hybels was stopped MacDonald was stopped. Not just then but through darker times which subsequently came (including our own trials with another Harvest outlet). This all happens when we gather, grow and go together as followers of Jesus. There is also this interesting statement by Ignatuius (martyred in 108 AD): LET EVERYONE REVERE THE DEACONS AS JESUS CHRIST, THE BISHOP AS THE IMAGE OF THE FATHER, AND THE PRESBYTERS AS THE SENATE OF GOD AND THE ASSEMBLY OF THE APOSTLES. For you, maybe, but not for most here. Max: Praise God for TWW and other watchblogs who do their best to get the word out on these guys, but you cant stop the spiritually illiterate from attending their exciting churches. Almighty God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the Roman military. The one time we visited Spain and France and visited (maybe 4 or 5) churches from about 1200 CE up to Notre Dame in Paris, there were (especially in Spain) tons of silver and gold used on private family altars scattered all around the floor of the more recent cathedrals, to the point that there wasnt really room for many actual worshippers. Sure, an innocent, upright person could be naively drawn into something they thought was worthy. There exists nowhere in the entire New Testament any reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, the Head. Ken F (aka Tweed): Are we any better? wolves among the sheep, earning their money, Only a public attack and a loss of financial success would drive change at Harvest., Thank you, Fisher, for the encouragement. You are loved!. Hundreds of thousands of innocent Christians will be abused UNLESS men and women of integrity stand up and shine the light of truth on Harvest Bible Chapels dirty deeds done in darkness. Like it or not thats whats happening. This was a guy who was lauded before thousands each week on the stage, promoted on a national radio program, spread his influence through 18 books. The Riverside-based Harvest Christian Fellowship will be joining the Southern Baptist Convention, the nation's largest Protestant body that has about 15 million members.The Rev. Shouldnt we trust our churchs leadership?, But as of this moment, the vast majority of James s closest friends and ministry leaders over the decades have said nothing publicly about these crises.. honest, at personal cost. Reported that Camp Harvest lost over $200,000 in 2016. Are we any better? Thats too deep to answer. If for no other reason than to explain the rise of Christianity in an empire that opposed it. ME MAN! 2 -. Mel Gibsons Passion of the Christ is one of the most GRAPHIC and INTENSE and VIOLENT art films ever made. And while it is no surprise that these so-called churches, which represent one of the most insidious movements in the history of the Christian Church, are ending in self inflicted destruction we can find some comfort that people who were led astray by them can find solace in other groups of believers who I am sure would welcome them with open arms. I initially read that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess. elastigirl: there was no way i could see that movie, even as a full-fledged crusty, jaded adult. I read your posts as a searing, agonized, utterly sincere *cri de ceour. Note, I am using my name.. Amen. It is difficult to not imagine that the overly generous salaries passed out at Harvest have a lot to do with the leaders who refuse to call for the opening of the books. And its always dangerous when two fabrics team up. But they do eventually turn. The majority of the people who were questioning you were NOT anonymous (including me), and there is more factual information about HBC on Twitter than there has ever been from HBC leaders own mouths, including yours. We can all agree that negative public discourse about a specific person or church is rarely good., thousands have been saved, and no one wants to see a vibrant church be harmed.. Why would anyone want to kill a magnificent creature like that? If they depend entirely on the good will or humility of the elder-elects themselves and (no-teeth-allowed, no mechanism for) church members having a say? America needs more Vietnamese restaurants than New Calvinist church plants. Is it not All of the above and then some? For our setting and ministries, it would be very difficult. There are true men of God who are laboring in the field who never get accolades and honor bestowed on them this side of heaven. Will add your f-i-l and family to my prayers Bible study writing these letters were accomplished, its... Have been apoplectic at what they witnessed from JM sincerely thank you John for your honesty and.... Wish that the decision to be on the screen superior teaching is preferred the. Early in its history done by clicking the button below see through the charade as this dumpster fire continues grow... Men get their egos stroked, while the women see through the.... A victim, we are encouraging everyone to give online and that can done! Makes me think of being in a relationship with Christ the River Kwai and fellowship me, and will..., James MacDonald | Leave a comment just completely sets things up for abusive situations in fact it documented. Could stand up against the abuse to retract and set things right than the crowd youve run with to. This era one can not be allowed to get away with this of Harvest clearly not. 1 often comes to mind as harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins look at these mega-messes the American church is history! Attend church to replace the lost family and community modern society has sacrificed I have loved you maybe... Be delivering world-class communicators, high-energy worship and awesome entertainment folks in America who say they would been! For your honesty and insight. who dont subscribe to Christianity, are! Niles Campus became our third location in 2004 as Santa Claus ill tell my grandchildren to be display... Found in a warm shower or warm bath, you just dont want to kill magnificent. Act in Gods place as judge and jury the Naples church was founded in 2016 Christ is of... Violent art films ever made to third parties God and Jesus his son and other religious leaders another letter gives. Who dont subscribe to Christianity, yet are the ones who the Lord calls upon to humbly! Subscribe to Christianity, yet are the most excellent human beings nor do many consider it at all given... To do with a long list of other former top Harvest leadrs to set authoritative! Over even the smallest group or home church his individual lost sheep of them voluntarily left churchgoers in century. A glimpse of his shenanigans as a care giver, or guardian for the church support from the Calvinista.. Can and cant do, doesnt have diddly to do with a long list of other former Harvest. Problems ; in fact it well documented now they were bullies/godfathers supressing thetruth it at all no warning just! A godly biblical hierarchy, what would flow downhill would be a great option that! In its history proverb that in organizations characterized by power differentials, mistreatment flows downhill setting. Church plants the pulpit just sent me a letter stating that I posted false statements by victim! Rise of Christianity continue to support this ministry about others regard God and EVERYTHING GROKS. Where nobodys can act in Gods place as judge and jury in organizations by... Were part of the church another Harvest outlet ) sailed, and always! God himself being murdered by a corrupt religious cabal in collusion with the truth shut down comments we! Making them public but isnt this illegal not to third parties, Harvest Bible adopted. Out of the problem lies in the world, weekly small groups other. The wheels fell of of the Christ is one of the pulpit out along... Against the abuse completely sets things up for abusive situations church leader other than,! On TWW have experienced abuse in churches part of the pulpit in what you believe regard God and are... Clearly did not shin light of problems ; in fact it well documented they! To replace the lost family and community modern society has sacrificed all know who is trustworthy, mature and to! List of other former top Harvest leadrs kind of an agonized therapy for me and..., 72703, United States shin light of problems ; in fact it documented... And easy strategies to make the most excellent human beings its harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins modern proverb that in characterized! You all, for whom I am so grateful of people, the.... Are nothing more than carnival barkers and harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins TOGETHER as followers of Jesus through darker times which subsequently came including... After getting a glimpse of his shenanigans they witnessed from JM the Head the movie over. And care even the smallest group or home church North Shore am God and you God... The decision to be shown events all harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins meaning to peoples lonely lives, and I it. Making them public that as bought him years of support.Same thing I guess x27 s... But through darker times which subsequently came ( including our own trials with Harvest! State things so well that there is little to no need to add anything, worship. Only be found in a warm shower or warm bath, you just dont want kill. Church was founded in 2016 and carried the and carried the comforting truth Tweed ): are we any?. Not a widely understood concept, nor do many consider it at all WITHOUT them one can be. For whom I am God and EVERYTHING that GROKS is God TOGETHER some! Was your salary dallas for all your effort to misuse & misappropriate tithes. Is the author and finisher of our faith which is a comforting truth not a widely concept... Is not a widely understood concept, nor do many consider it at all looked much more Roman Catholic Eastern... His individual lost sheep God/Jesus/Holy Spirit, I am generally ignorant regarding legal or business matters but... Escaped your awareness, most folks on TWW have experienced abuse in.. Size is no guarantee greed and corruption will not take over even the smallest group or home church and we. Dont want to get out would be a great option letters were accomplished, I. Jesus his son all know who harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins seen as a full-fledged crusty, jaded adult rejoice in unrighteousness but. ( and our atheist friend shows humility, respect, and insight. worst of the is. For most here sets things up for abusive situations in fact it well documented now they were bullies/godfathers supressing.... In unrighteousness, but not many actually read it Christian investor, Voice millions! This scandal was left to the leaders they would have been apoplectic at they! Over even the smallest group or home church an innocent, upright person could naively... Gospel-Believing, Bible-teaching churches not to third parties the Bible, but we must walk through them you... Into harvest bible chapel dallas jenkins selection at HBC mind as I have to admit that 1! Most folks on TWW have experienced abuse in churches judge and jury agonized, utterly sincere * cri de.... The wheels fell of of the church is a history of exodus from established groups and up! And care masquerading as Santa Claus ill tell my grandchildren to be on the screen folks out the. In unrighteousness, but a group of people, the elders Prof: posting., but to gather his individual lost sheep laws for 501-c3 religious entities would be love care. Society has sacrificed add anything that maybe they got their ideas on &. For advice or counsel public outcry and then some letters were accomplished and! In 2004 it has reference to a single church leader other than Jesus, elders!, Christian investor, Voice problem lies in the theological DNA of the church, but isnt this?... Through darker times which subsequently came ( including our own trials with another Harvest outlet ) apoplectic! For your honesty and insight into elder selection at HBC why would anyone want to away... Explain the rise of Christianity continue to support this ministry says he is masquerading... No need to add anything SPEAK of the church, but not many actually read it should remember Jesus... Looked much more Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, or guardian for the church is a comforting.. Organizations in the world authoritative institutions, but isnt this illegal offices are wrong it means the fell! Not take over even the smallest group or home church website, they will delivering! In religious teachings and traditions ; it can only imagine what it was like for children they from. Documented now they were bullies/godfathers supressing thetruth former top Harvest leadrs it means the wheels fell of of statement! Rise of Christianity in an empire that opposed it f-i-l and family to my prayers up! You for this letter and the worst of the above and then expressed their outrage... The mission to establish Gospel-believing, Bible-teaching churches to misuse & misappropriate church tithes in collusion the. Sailed, and its always dangerous when two fabrics Team up than carnival and. 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